Question: In the New International Dictionary of the Bible (Editor J.D. Douglas & Merrill C Tenney) page 1070 under "worship" says to prostrate, do obeisance In your (69 & 85) Kit when translating the word "worship" is translated "did obeisance" every time for Jesus, and the exact same word says worship toward Jehovah.
What happened to the word for word translation promise in the foreword of both books?
The fact is Jesus was worshipped as God many times according to the Gospel accounts, and he always accepted such worship as appropriate.
Jesus accepted worship from Thomas (John 20:28), the angels (Hebrews l:6) the wise men (Matt 2:ll), a leper (Matt 8:2, a ruler (Matt 9:18), a blind man (John 9:38), an anonymous woman (Matt 15:25; Mary Magdalene (Matt 28:9, and his diciples (Matt 28:l7) In the book of Rev, God the Father (4:l0) and Jesus Christ (5:ll-l4) are clearly portrayed as receiving the exact same worship.
Hebrew l:6 Jehovah said let all God's angels do obeisance to him (Now we know what that means) And in Luke 4:8 Jesus said, "It is Jehovah your God you must worship and it is him alone you must render sacred service.
How do you explain this?
Now let's read Rom 14:11 Jehovah says "to me every knee will bend down and every tongue will make open knowledgement to God. I think both of us will agree this is worship. So let's read Phil. 2:10,ll. Imagine that!! It says the exact same thing about Jesus.
Your comments please.
Reply: Have you ever really bothered to check out the meanings of these words. We will start off the with the Hebrew equivalent, Shachah. Ex 34:14 says, " for thou shalt worship (shachah) no other god: for Jehovah, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God" ASV
However, this same word for worship, shachah [proskuneo, LXX], was also often used of mere men of honor (see Gen 23:7, 12; 33:3; 43:28; 1 Sam 24:8; Ruth 2:10; 1 Kings 1:31; 2 Kings 4:37; Esther 3:2, 5 etc.), and angels (Jos 5:14; Num 22:31; Gen 18:2; 19:1).
In the Greek, according to W.E. Vine's Expository Dictionary, PROSKUNEO means "to make obeisance, do reverence to...It is used of an act of homage or reverence to God (John 4:24)...to Christ (Matt 2:2)...to a man (Matt 18:26)...to the Dragon (Re. 13:4)...to the Beast (Rev 13:8)...the image of the Beast (Rev 14:11)...to demons (Rev 9:20)...to idols (Acts 7:43)."
Remember, the LXX uses this word when it comes to shachah. It simply means that the word does not hold the same connotations as it does today.
"Then the king Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face, and worshipped Daniel" Dan 2:46 KJV, RV, ASV
"And all the congregation blessed the Lord God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the LORD, and the king." 1Chron 29:20 KJV, ASV
Here, king David is given the same worship as Jehovah.
Even the American Standard Version mentions at Matt. 2:2, "The Greek word denotes an act of reverence, whether paid to man (see chap. Matt. 18:26) or to God (see chap. Matt. 4:10)'" ?
So it is necessary for Bible versions to make a distinction, as they all do (see Matt 18:26).
Is the Kingdom Interlinear Translation discriminatory in its inconsistency. I checked this with other interlinears that I own. My NKJV/Majority Text has "obeisance" at Matt 18:26, but "worship" at Heb 1:6. My Marshall/Nestle Interlinear has the same thing in the same places. It appears that they, like the translators of the KIT gave "as literal a translation as possible" and "as nearly as possible word for word" renderings. (see forward KIT).
See also NEB, Young, Byington, NJB, Goodspeed, Newcome, REB, 20th Cent, Schonfield, Confraternity, Douay and Kleist&Lilly etc
Question: Also in Ephesians 4:5 it reads one Lord. In Isaiah l0:33 Jehovah is the {true} Lord. But in Luke 2:ll reads Jesus is {the} Lord. 16. If there are two Lords why didn't they say "A" Lord in Luke 2:ll? Ver 6 reads "one God", you have two.
Reply: No one here has 2 gods based on your meaning of "god", as those of my ilk are one of the few that actually recognize the Biblical use of the word "God."
Luke 2:11 OTI ETECQH UMIN SHMERON SWTHR OS ESTIN CRISTOS KURIOS EN POLEI DAUID
As you can see, there is actually no article here in the Greek by Lord (KURIOS), it is supplied by the translators of Bible versions (you will notice that the article "the" is often supplied in brackets).
As far as the OT goes, the scripture that is definitely applied to Christ (Psalm 110:1) uses the word adoni, a form of the word that is never used of YHWH, but only humans and angels.
As for the word Lord in the Greek, it is used (a) of an owner, as in Luke 19:33, cp. Matt. 20:8; Acts 16:16; Gal. 4:1; or of one who has the disposal of anything, as the Sabbath, Matt. 12:8; (b) of a master, i.e., one to whom service is due on any ground, Matt. 6:24; 24:50; Eph. 6:5; (c) of an Emperor or King, Acts 25:26; Rev. 17:14; (d) of idols, ironically, 1 Cor. 8:5, cp. Isa. 26:13; (e) as a title of respect addressed to a father, Matt. 21:30, a husband, 1 Pet. 3:6, a master, Matt. 13:27; Luke 13:8, a ruler, Matt. 27:63, an angel, Acts 10:4; Rev. 7:14; (f) and as a title of courtesy addressed to a stranger, John 12:21; 20:15; Acts 16:30.
The Bible has many references to a "lord and king" that refer to human kings. (See 1 Sam 24:8; 26:15, 17, 19; 29:8; 2 Sam. 2:7; 3:21; 4:8; 9:11; 13:33; 14:9 etc). And why not, as they sit on Jehovah's throne (1 Chron 29:23). Like Jesus, they were GIVEN authority.
But isn't the term used for both the Father and the Son?
Consider the following verses:
Rom. 15:6
"you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"
2 Cor. 1:3
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"
2 Cor. 11:31
"The God and Father of our Lord Jesus"
Eph. 1:3
"Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"
Eph. 1:17
"...the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"
1 Pet. 1:3
"...the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"
These verses present a few problems:
God the Father is Lord. But when one Lord is the God of another who is also Lord, then they are not the same, or even equal.
If Jesus is subordinate to God only as to his "human nature," then this contradicts the above verses, for there Jesus, in his divine state, has someone who is God to him.
Question: Also it reads "One Father", Jesus is all eternal Father and Mighty God in Isaiah 9:6. And in Isaiah l0:21 Jehovah is called a "Mighty God". Imagine that!! They both are God, Lord, Father, when Paul said there is only one. In latter part of verse 6 reads "who is over all and through all and in all" But if you read Matt 28:18 Jesus said "All" authority (not half) has been given me in Heaven and on the Earth. Either you have one of each or you have a lot of contradictions.
Your comments please.
Reply: And you forget the optimum word here. It is the word GIVEN. Almighty God does not need to be GIVEN anything. By handing over all authority to Christ, he, as Michael, can oust Satan from the heavens (Rev 12:7-12).
"And I heard a great voice in heaven, saying, Now is come the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, who accuseth them before our God day and night."
But he eventually hands it back to God, who is excepted from the word "ALL."
1 Cor 15:24-28 says, "Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father; after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For God has put all things in subjection under his feet. But when it says, All things are put in subjection under him, it is plain that he is excepted who put all things under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things unto him, that God may be everything to everyone." RSV
As for Isaiah 9:6, read how it is used in other Bibles:
"Wonder-Counsellor, Divine Champion, Father Ever, Captain of Peace." Byington
"A wonder of a counsellor, a divine hero, a father for all time, a peaceful prince." Moffatt
"in purpose wonderful, in battle God-like...." New English Bible
"Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty Hero, Eternal Father...."Revised English Bible
"great leader, time's father"...Fenton
Why, because this verse has an earlier reference to a human king, like King Hezekiah, the son of Ahaz; or to Hezekiah initially and Christ finally. Note what some from former years have said regarding this account:
"Hezekiah, who was very unlike his father Ahaz. This passage is acknowledged, not only by Christians, but by the Chaldee interpreter, to relate in the same manner, but in a more excellent sense, to the Messiah––(Annotationes ad vetus et Novum Testamentum, by Hugo Grotius, a Dutch Arminian, 1583-1645).
"In several places of his Expositions and Sermons, he [LUTHER] maintains that the epithets belong, not to the person of Christ, but to his work and office. He understands [ale; Strongs 410] in the sense of power or ability, citing for his authority Deut. Xxviii. 32, where, as in about four other places, the expression occurs of an action's being or not being "in the power of the hand,"––(Scripture Testimony to the Messiah, Third ed. Lond. 1837, 3 vol., by Dr. J.P. Smith [it should fairly be noted that Dr. Smith disapproves of Luther's rendering])
"The word la [ale] here used is applicable, not only to God, but to angels and men worthy of admiration. Whence it does not appear, that the Deity of Christ can be effectually gathered from this passage."––(apud Sandium, p. 118, SASBOUT [as quoted in Concession, by Wilson])
"The words of Isaiah, Deus fortis, "strong God," have been differently interpreted. It is evident, that the term God is in Hebrew applied figuratively to those who excel – to angels, heroes, and magistrates; and some render it here, not God, but brave or hero."––(apud Sandium, p. 118, Esromus Rudingerus [as quoted in Concessions, by Wilson])
"It is evident that la [ale] properly denotes strong, powerful, and is used in Ezek. Xxxi. 11, of king Nebuchadnezzar, who is called... "the mighty one of the heathen."––(Scholia in Vetus Testamentum. Lips. 1828-36, 6 vol, E.F.C. Rosenmuller [Prof. of the Arabic Language at Leipzig; d. 1836])
...and, do you really think both of them are the Father, as you have stated above? If you do, then you are a Sabellianist, not a trinitarian.
Question: While you are in the 28 Chapter read verse 9, then turn to Acts 2:38 and read.
Why didn't it say Jehovah?
There is something else that bothers me, that Rom l0:13. Now read Acts 4:10-12, If both names are equally important 19. Why are they not listed together? Unless he is the same.-given name
Please comment.
Reply: Because Jesus was GIVEN a better name. "Wherefore also God highly exalted him, and gave unto him the name which is above every name." Php 2:9
Almighty God does not need to be exalted, he does not need to be given a name above all others.
You see, in the past, you can do things in a prophet's name (1 Ki 21:8) or in a king's name (1 Sa 25:9), but unlike these, including the angels, "he hath inherited a more excellent name than they." Heb 1:4
Jn 17:2 just as you gave him authority over all people, so that he may give eternal life to all you gave him. NAB
Jn 17:11 And now I will no longer be in the world, but they are in the world, while I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are. NAB
We don't need to know that Almighty God is better than the angels, for that is already understood. Almighty God does not need to inherit anything, for that is also understood.
What happened to the word for word translation promise in the foreword of both books?
The fact is Jesus was worshipped as God many times according to the Gospel accounts, and he always accepted such worship as appropriate.
Jesus accepted worship from Thomas (John 20:28), the angels (Hebrews l:6) the wise men (Matt 2:ll), a leper (Matt 8:2, a ruler (Matt 9:18), a blind man (John 9:38), an anonymous woman (Matt 15:25; Mary Magdalene (Matt 28:9, and his diciples (Matt 28:l7) In the book of Rev, God the Father (4:l0) and Jesus Christ (5:ll-l4) are clearly portrayed as receiving the exact same worship.
Hebrew l:6 Jehovah said let all God's angels do obeisance to him (Now we know what that means) And in Luke 4:8 Jesus said, "It is Jehovah your God you must worship and it is him alone you must render sacred service.
How do you explain this?
Now let's read Rom 14:11 Jehovah says "to me every knee will bend down and every tongue will make open knowledgement to God. I think both of us will agree this is worship. So let's read Phil. 2:10,ll. Imagine that!! It says the exact same thing about Jesus.
Your comments please.
Reply: Have you ever really bothered to check out the meanings of these words. We will start off the with the Hebrew equivalent, Shachah. Ex 34:14 says, " for thou shalt worship (shachah) no other god: for Jehovah, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God" ASV
However, this same word for worship, shachah [proskuneo, LXX], was also often used of mere men of honor (see Gen 23:7, 12; 33:3; 43:28; 1 Sam 24:8; Ruth 2:10; 1 Kings 1:31; 2 Kings 4:37; Esther 3:2, 5 etc.), and angels (Jos 5:14; Num 22:31; Gen 18:2; 19:1).
In the Greek, according to W.E. Vine's Expository Dictionary, PROSKUNEO means "to make obeisance, do reverence to...It is used of an act of homage or reverence to God (John 4:24)...to Christ (Matt 2:2)...to a man (Matt 18:26)...to the Dragon (Re. 13:4)...to the Beast (Rev 13:8)...the image of the Beast (Rev 14:11)...to demons (Rev 9:20)...to idols (Acts 7:43)."
Remember, the LXX uses this word when it comes to shachah. It simply means that the word does not hold the same connotations as it does today.
"Then the king Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face, and worshipped Daniel" Dan 2:46 KJV, RV, ASV
"And all the congregation blessed the Lord God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the LORD, and the king." 1Chron 29:20 KJV, ASV
Here, king David is given the same worship as Jehovah.
Even the American Standard Version mentions at Matt. 2:2, "The Greek word denotes an act of reverence, whether paid to man (see chap. Matt. 18:26) or to God (see chap. Matt. 4:10)'" ?
So it is necessary for Bible versions to make a distinction, as they all do (see Matt 18:26).
Is the Kingdom Interlinear Translation discriminatory in its inconsistency. I checked this with other interlinears that I own. My NKJV/Majority Text has "obeisance" at Matt 18:26, but "worship" at Heb 1:6. My Marshall/Nestle Interlinear has the same thing in the same places. It appears that they, like the translators of the KIT gave "as literal a translation as possible" and "as nearly as possible word for word" renderings. (see forward KIT).
See also NEB, Young, Byington, NJB, Goodspeed, Newcome, REB, 20th Cent, Schonfield, Confraternity, Douay and Kleist&Lilly etc
Question: Also in Ephesians 4:5 it reads one Lord. In Isaiah l0:33 Jehovah is the {true} Lord. But in Luke 2:ll reads Jesus is {the} Lord. 16. If there are two Lords why didn't they say "A" Lord in Luke 2:ll? Ver 6 reads "one God", you have two.
Reply: No one here has 2 gods based on your meaning of "god", as those of my ilk are one of the few that actually recognize the Biblical use of the word "God."
Luke 2:11 OTI ETECQH UMIN SHMERON SWTHR OS ESTIN CRISTOS KURIOS EN POLEI DAUID
As you can see, there is actually no article here in the Greek by Lord (KURIOS), it is supplied by the translators of Bible versions (you will notice that the article "the" is often supplied in brackets).
As far as the OT goes, the scripture that is definitely applied to Christ (Psalm 110:1) uses the word adoni, a form of the word that is never used of YHWH, but only humans and angels.
As for the word Lord in the Greek, it is used (a) of an owner, as in Luke 19:33, cp. Matt. 20:8; Acts 16:16; Gal. 4:1; or of one who has the disposal of anything, as the Sabbath, Matt. 12:8; (b) of a master, i.e., one to whom service is due on any ground, Matt. 6:24; 24:50; Eph. 6:5; (c) of an Emperor or King, Acts 25:26; Rev. 17:14; (d) of idols, ironically, 1 Cor. 8:5, cp. Isa. 26:13; (e) as a title of respect addressed to a father, Matt. 21:30, a husband, 1 Pet. 3:6, a master, Matt. 13:27; Luke 13:8, a ruler, Matt. 27:63, an angel, Acts 10:4; Rev. 7:14; (f) and as a title of courtesy addressed to a stranger, John 12:21; 20:15; Acts 16:30.
The Bible has many references to a "lord and king" that refer to human kings. (See 1 Sam 24:8; 26:15, 17, 19; 29:8; 2 Sam. 2:7; 3:21; 4:8; 9:11; 13:33; 14:9 etc). And why not, as they sit on Jehovah's throne (1 Chron 29:23). Like Jesus, they were GIVEN authority.
But isn't the term used for both the Father and the Son?
Consider the following verses:
Rom. 15:6
"you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"
2 Cor. 1:3
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"
2 Cor. 11:31
"The God and Father of our Lord Jesus"
Eph. 1:3
"Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"
Eph. 1:17
"...the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"
1 Pet. 1:3
"...the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"
These verses present a few problems:
God the Father is Lord. But when one Lord is the God of another who is also Lord, then they are not the same, or even equal.
If Jesus is subordinate to God only as to his "human nature," then this contradicts the above verses, for there Jesus, in his divine state, has someone who is God to him.
Question: Also it reads "One Father", Jesus is all eternal Father and Mighty God in Isaiah 9:6. And in Isaiah l0:21 Jehovah is called a "Mighty God". Imagine that!! They both are God, Lord, Father, when Paul said there is only one. In latter part of verse 6 reads "who is over all and through all and in all" But if you read Matt 28:18 Jesus said "All" authority (not half) has been given me in Heaven and on the Earth. Either you have one of each or you have a lot of contradictions.
Your comments please.
Reply: And you forget the optimum word here. It is the word GIVEN. Almighty God does not need to be GIVEN anything. By handing over all authority to Christ, he, as Michael, can oust Satan from the heavens (Rev 12:7-12).
"And I heard a great voice in heaven, saying, Now is come the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, who accuseth them before our God day and night."
But he eventually hands it back to God, who is excepted from the word "ALL."
1 Cor 15:24-28 says, "Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father; after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For God has put all things in subjection under his feet. But when it says, All things are put in subjection under him, it is plain that he is excepted who put all things under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things unto him, that God may be everything to everyone." RSV
As for Isaiah 9:6, read how it is used in other Bibles:
"Wonder-Counsellor, Divine Champion, Father Ever, Captain of Peace." Byington
"A wonder of a counsellor, a divine hero, a father for all time, a peaceful prince." Moffatt
"in purpose wonderful, in battle God-like...." New English Bible
"Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty Hero, Eternal Father...."Revised English Bible
"great leader, time's father"...Fenton
Why, because this verse has an earlier reference to a human king, like King Hezekiah, the son of Ahaz; or to Hezekiah initially and Christ finally. Note what some from former years have said regarding this account:
"Hezekiah, who was very unlike his father Ahaz. This passage is acknowledged, not only by Christians, but by the Chaldee interpreter, to relate in the same manner, but in a more excellent sense, to the Messiah––(Annotationes ad vetus et Novum Testamentum, by Hugo Grotius, a Dutch Arminian, 1583-1645).
"In several places of his Expositions and Sermons, he [LUTHER] maintains that the epithets belong, not to the person of Christ, but to his work and office. He understands [ale; Strongs 410] in the sense of power or ability, citing for his authority Deut. Xxviii. 32, where, as in about four other places, the expression occurs of an action's being or not being "in the power of the hand,"––(Scripture Testimony to the Messiah, Third ed. Lond. 1837, 3 vol., by Dr. J.P. Smith [it should fairly be noted that Dr. Smith disapproves of Luther's rendering])
"The word la [ale] here used is applicable, not only to God, but to angels and men worthy of admiration. Whence it does not appear, that the Deity of Christ can be effectually gathered from this passage."––(apud Sandium, p. 118, SASBOUT [as quoted in Concession, by Wilson])
"The words of Isaiah, Deus fortis, "strong God," have been differently interpreted. It is evident, that the term God is in Hebrew applied figuratively to those who excel – to angels, heroes, and magistrates; and some render it here, not God, but brave or hero."––(apud Sandium, p. 118, Esromus Rudingerus [as quoted in Concessions, by Wilson])
"It is evident that la [ale] properly denotes strong, powerful, and is used in Ezek. Xxxi. 11, of king Nebuchadnezzar, who is called... "the mighty one of the heathen."––(Scholia in Vetus Testamentum. Lips. 1828-36, 6 vol, E.F.C. Rosenmuller [Prof. of the Arabic Language at Leipzig; d. 1836])
...and, do you really think both of them are the Father, as you have stated above? If you do, then you are a Sabellianist, not a trinitarian.
Question: While you are in the 28 Chapter read verse 9, then turn to Acts 2:38 and read.
Why didn't it say Jehovah?
There is something else that bothers me, that Rom l0:13. Now read Acts 4:10-12, If both names are equally important 19. Why are they not listed together? Unless he is the same.-given name
Please comment.
Reply: Because Jesus was GIVEN a better name. "Wherefore also God highly exalted him, and gave unto him the name which is above every name." Php 2:9
Almighty God does not need to be exalted, he does not need to be given a name above all others.
You see, in the past, you can do things in a prophet's name (1 Ki 21:8) or in a king's name (1 Sa 25:9), but unlike these, including the angels, "he hath inherited a more excellent name than they." Heb 1:4
Jn 17:2 just as you gave him authority over all people, so that he may give eternal life to all you gave him. NAB
Jn 17:11 And now I will no longer be in the world, but they are in the world, while I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are. NAB
We don't need to know that Almighty God is better than the angels, for that is already understood. Almighty God does not need to inherit anything, for that is also understood.
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