Question: You use examples of other translations as valid reason for the NWT's rendering of John 1:1, where in other instances you point to some of those same translations as erroneous when they translate other passages differently from the NWT. Instead, why not stick to the issue at hand: "Is the NWT an accurate translation of the original text?"
Reply: Yes! "If you belong to a small group of serious students of the Bible who are trying to appreciate to learn the Hebrew or Greek languages, then you will appreciate the value of a 'crib' or 'gloss' translation, especially an interlinear one, or a relatively word-for-word one like the NASB, KJ2, *NWT*, YOUNG, DARBY, RV, DOUAY, Concordant." p. 67, Bible Translations and How to Choose Between Them by Alan S. Duthie
"For detailed word-studies and similar interests in the original languages. we suggest either a very literal version like NAS, *NWT*, LTB-KJ2; or preferably an interlinear version [*Kingdom {Interlinear Translation*}, Marshall]. p. 225, How to Choose Your Bible Wisely, Duthie
Question: The appendix of the Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures (KIT) points to the rule that the definite article is used with the greek word for God when it refers to The Father (Jehovah) and the definite article is not present when referring to The Son (Jesus)as is the case in the original greek text of John 1:1. That assumed rule does not stand up when examining other scriptures where the definite article is or is not present. The opposite of the rule applies. Consider these scriptures where the article is not present and the text refers to The Father (Jehovah). Matt. 5:9, 6:24, 12:28, 15:4, 19:26, 27:43, Acts 27:46, 3:18, 5:27 & 39, 14:15, Rom 1:7,21 & 30, 2:17, 3:18, 1Cor 1:24 & 30, 2:5&7, 3:7,9 & 23, 4:1, 6:19, 7:7 & 19, 10:20, 14:2, 15:34...
Reply: You are ignoring the unique construction of John 1:1. The word for "god" in Greek is QEOS/theos. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called "a predicate noun" or, "a predicate nominative". Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN "was" follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. What have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction?
There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite...In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.—Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.
We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite ["qualitative" would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to "the image of God'' of Paul, Col. 1:15.—G. Lucke, "Dissertation on the Logos", quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.
There is a distinction in the Greek here between 'with God' and 'God'. In the first instance the article is used and this makes the reference specific. In the second instance there in no article and it is difficult to believe that the omission is not significant. In effect it gives an adjectival quality to the second use of Theos so the phrase means 'The Word was divine'.—The Translator's New Testament, p. 451.
We reach a more difficult issue in the Gospel of John. Here, in the Prologue, the Word is said to be God, but, as often observed, in contrast with the clause, 'the Word was with God', the definite article is not used (in the final clause.) For this reason it is generally translated 'and the Word was divine' (Moffatt) or is not regarded as God in the Absolute sense of the name...In a second passage in the Prologue (I 18) the textual evidence attests 'only-begotten God' more strongly than 'only begotten Son', but the latter is preferred by many commentators as being more in harmony with Johannine usage and with the succeeding clause, 'who is in the bosom of the Father'. In neither passage is Jesus unequivocally called God, while again and again in the Gospel He is named 'the Son of God.—Vincent Taylor, The Expository Times, January 1962. p. 117.
As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue's "The Word was God" offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that "god" means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.—Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.
The late Dr. William Temple in His Readings in St. John's Gospel (1939), 4, obviously accepts Moffatt's translation, for he says, 'The term "God" is fully substantival [shows identity, who, or
what, 'the God', the Father, is] in the first clause pros ton then ["with the God", both "the" (ton) and "God" (Theon) being spelled accusative case endings] it is predicative and not far from
being adjectival in the second - kai theos en ho logos ["and (a) god was the Word"]—R.H. Strachan, The Fourth Gospel (3rd ed., 1941).
Question: Consider also John 20:28 where Thomas calls Jesus "My Lord and My God". The definite article IS present in this scripture in which there is no questioning the fact that Thomas is speaking directly to and about Jesus. Note that this very same sentence structure is present at Matt 4:10 when speaking of The Father, Jehovah.
Reply: Actually it is not the same structure at all. Matt 4:10 has KURION TON QEON whereas John 20:28 has O KURIOS MOU KAI O QEOS MOU. The former is never used of Jesus.
If Thomas was actually calling Jesus hO QEOS and hO KURIOS--it is strange that Thomas used the nominative forms of KURIOS and QEOS instead of the vocative. So it still seems that Theodore of Mopsuestia could have been correct. The Father may well be the referent in John 20:28.
This brings us to Smart's Rule as discussed on B-Greek. The rule is stated as: "In native [not translation] KOINE Greek when the copulative KAI connects two substantives of personal description in regimen [i.e. both or neither have articles] and the first substantive alone is modified by the personal pronoun in the genitive or repeated for perspicuity [Winer 147-148;155] two persons or groups of persons are in view."
Possessive pronoun repeated for perspicuity (21) - (Mt 12:47,49; Mk 3:31 ,32 ,33 ,34 ; 6:4 7:10 ; 8:20, 21 Lu 8:21 ; Jn 2:12; 4:12; Ac 2:17; Ro 16:21 ; 1Th 3:11 ; 2Th 2:16 ; 1Ti 1:1; 2Ti 1:5; Heb 8:11; Re 6:11) [Heb 1:7 is a LXX quote and is therefore translation Greek.]
Single possessive - both substantives anarthrous (10) - (Mk 3:35; Ro 1:7; 1Co 1:3; 2Co 1:2; Ga 1:3; Ep 1:2; Php 1:2; 2Th 1:1,2; Phil 1:3)
Single possessive pronoun - both substantives arthrous (12) - (Mk 6:21; 10:7,19; 16:7; Lk 2:23; 14:26; 18:20; Jn 11:5; Eph 6:2; Ac 7:14; 10:24; Re 11:18)
"Thomas answered and said unto Him, My Lord and my God." He saw and touched the man, and acknowledged the God whom he neither saw nor touched; but by the means of what he saw and touched, he now put far away from him every doubt, and believed the other." Augustine in"Tractate CXXI"
Does Jn 20:28 say what trinitarians think it says? No. There is nothing there that talks of Jesus as being God the Son, the second person of a consubstantial Trinity.
"For any Jew or Greek in the first century A.D. who was acquainted with the OT in Greek, the term QEOS would have seemed rich in content since it signified the Deity, the Creator of heaven and earth, and also could render the ineffable sacred name, Yahweh, the covenantal God, and yet was able of exremely diverse application, ranging from the images of pagan deities to the One true God of Israel, from heroic people to angelic beings. Whether one examines the Jewish or the Gentile use of the term QEOS up to the end of the 1st century A.D., there is an occasional application of the term to human beings who perform divine functions or display divine characteristics." Harris' Jesus as God, p.270
Don Cupitt describes the relationship between God and Jesus as "something like that between King and ambassador, employer and omnicompetent secretary, or Sultan and Grand Vizier. Christ's is God's right hand man; all God does he does through Christ, and all approach to God is through Christ. All traffic, both ways, between God and the world is routed through Christ." The Debate about Christ, p. 30 The LOGOS is God's agent, not God himself.
metatron3@gmail.com
Reply: Yes! "If you belong to a small group of serious students of the Bible who are trying to appreciate to learn the Hebrew or Greek languages, then you will appreciate the value of a 'crib' or 'gloss' translation, especially an interlinear one, or a relatively word-for-word one like the NASB, KJ2, *NWT*, YOUNG, DARBY, RV, DOUAY, Concordant." p. 67, Bible Translations and How to Choose Between Them by Alan S. Duthie
"For detailed word-studies and similar interests in the original languages. we suggest either a very literal version like NAS, *NWT*, LTB-KJ2; or preferably an interlinear version [*Kingdom {Interlinear Translation*}, Marshall]. p. 225, How to Choose Your Bible Wisely, Duthie
Question: The appendix of the Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures (KIT) points to the rule that the definite article is used with the greek word for God when it refers to The Father (Jehovah) and the definite article is not present when referring to The Son (Jesus)as is the case in the original greek text of John 1:1. That assumed rule does not stand up when examining other scriptures where the definite article is or is not present. The opposite of the rule applies. Consider these scriptures where the article is not present and the text refers to The Father (Jehovah). Matt. 5:9, 6:24, 12:28, 15:4, 19:26, 27:43, Acts 27:46, 3:18, 5:27 & 39, 14:15, Rom 1:7,21 & 30, 2:17, 3:18, 1Cor 1:24 & 30, 2:5&7, 3:7,9 & 23, 4:1, 6:19, 7:7 & 19, 10:20, 14:2, 15:34...
Reply: You are ignoring the unique construction of John 1:1. The word for "god" in Greek is QEOS/theos. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called "a predicate noun" or, "a predicate nominative". Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN "was" follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. What have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction?
There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite...In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.—Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.
We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite ["qualitative" would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to "the image of God'' of Paul, Col. 1:15.—G. Lucke, "Dissertation on the Logos", quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.
There is a distinction in the Greek here between 'with God' and 'God'. In the first instance the article is used and this makes the reference specific. In the second instance there in no article and it is difficult to believe that the omission is not significant. In effect it gives an adjectival quality to the second use of Theos so the phrase means 'The Word was divine'.—The Translator's New Testament, p. 451.
We reach a more difficult issue in the Gospel of John. Here, in the Prologue, the Word is said to be God, but, as often observed, in contrast with the clause, 'the Word was with God', the definite article is not used (in the final clause.) For this reason it is generally translated 'and the Word was divine' (Moffatt) or is not regarded as God in the Absolute sense of the name...In a second passage in the Prologue (I 18) the textual evidence attests 'only-begotten God' more strongly than 'only begotten Son', but the latter is preferred by many commentators as being more in harmony with Johannine usage and with the succeeding clause, 'who is in the bosom of the Father'. In neither passage is Jesus unequivocally called God, while again and again in the Gospel He is named 'the Son of God.—Vincent Taylor, The Expository Times, January 1962. p. 117.
As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue's "The Word was God" offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that "god" means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.—Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.
The late Dr. William Temple in His Readings in St. John's Gospel (1939), 4, obviously accepts Moffatt's translation, for he says, 'The term "God" is fully substantival [shows identity, who, or
what, 'the God', the Father, is] in the first clause pros ton then ["with the God", both "the" (ton) and "God" (Theon) being spelled accusative case endings] it is predicative and not far from
being adjectival in the second - kai theos en ho logos ["and (a) god was the Word"]—R.H. Strachan, The Fourth Gospel (3rd ed., 1941).
Question: Consider also John 20:28 where Thomas calls Jesus "My Lord and My God". The definite article IS present in this scripture in which there is no questioning the fact that Thomas is speaking directly to and about Jesus. Note that this very same sentence structure is present at Matt 4:10 when speaking of The Father, Jehovah.
Reply: Actually it is not the same structure at all. Matt 4:10 has KURION TON QEON whereas John 20:28 has O KURIOS MOU KAI O QEOS MOU. The former is never used of Jesus.
If Thomas was actually calling Jesus hO QEOS and hO KURIOS--it is strange that Thomas used the nominative forms of KURIOS and QEOS instead of the vocative. So it still seems that Theodore of Mopsuestia could have been correct. The Father may well be the referent in John 20:28.
This brings us to Smart's Rule as discussed on B-Greek. The rule is stated as: "In native [not translation] KOINE Greek when the copulative KAI connects two substantives of personal description in regimen [i.e. both or neither have articles] and the first substantive alone is modified by the personal pronoun in the genitive or repeated for perspicuity [Winer 147-148;155] two persons or groups of persons are in view."
Possessive pronoun repeated for perspicuity (21) - (Mt 12:47,49; Mk 3:31 ,32 ,33 ,34 ; 6:4 7:10 ; 8:20, 21 Lu 8:21 ; Jn 2:12; 4:12; Ac 2:17; Ro 16:21 ; 1Th 3:11 ; 2Th 2:16 ; 1Ti 1:1; 2Ti 1:5; Heb 8:11; Re 6:11) [Heb 1:7 is a LXX quote and is therefore translation Greek.]
Single possessive - both substantives anarthrous (10) - (Mk 3:35; Ro 1:7; 1Co 1:3; 2Co 1:2; Ga 1:3; Ep 1:2; Php 1:2; 2Th 1:1,2; Phil 1:3)
Single possessive pronoun - both substantives arthrous (12) - (Mk 6:21; 10:7,19; 16:7; Lk 2:23; 14:26; 18:20; Jn 11:5; Eph 6:2; Ac 7:14; 10:24; Re 11:18)
"Thomas answered and said unto Him, My Lord and my God." He saw and touched the man, and acknowledged the God whom he neither saw nor touched; but by the means of what he saw and touched, he now put far away from him every doubt, and believed the other." Augustine in"Tractate CXXI"
Does Jn 20:28 say what trinitarians think it says? No. There is nothing there that talks of Jesus as being God the Son, the second person of a consubstantial Trinity.
"For any Jew or Greek in the first century A.D. who was acquainted with the OT in Greek, the term QEOS would have seemed rich in content since it signified the Deity, the Creator of heaven and earth, and also could render the ineffable sacred name, Yahweh, the covenantal God, and yet was able of exremely diverse application, ranging from the images of pagan deities to the One true God of Israel, from heroic people to angelic beings. Whether one examines the Jewish or the Gentile use of the term QEOS up to the end of the 1st century A.D., there is an occasional application of the term to human beings who perform divine functions or display divine characteristics." Harris' Jesus as God, p.270
Don Cupitt describes the relationship between God and Jesus as "something like that between King and ambassador, employer and omnicompetent secretary, or Sultan and Grand Vizier. Christ's is God's right hand man; all God does he does through Christ, and all approach to God is through Christ. All traffic, both ways, between God and the world is routed through Christ." The Debate about Christ, p. 30 The LOGOS is God's agent, not God himself.
metatron3@gmail.com
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