Saturday, December 29, 2018

Online Discussions on Luke 23:43


The Significance of a Comma: An Analysis of Luke 23:43
"...if placed after 'today,' then the adverb would modify the preceding verb (“to tell”), and Jesus’ words would have an entirely different connotation: 'Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise.' Though sometimes considered pleonastic and senseless, the alternative reading could be possible, especially if all the evidence—textual, linguistic, and scriptural—is accounted for.
https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/2013/06/the-significance-of-a-comma:-an-analysis-of-luke-23:43

Re: Luke 23:43 - Where does the comma go?
For the punctuation marks in Luke 23:43, three possibilities have been offered: to put a comma before the word "today," to put it after "today," or to put a comma both before and after "today."--See "Understanding and Translating 'Today' in Luke 23.43," by J. Hong, published in "The Bible Translator," Vol. 46, 1995, pp. 408-417.
http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/test-archives/html4/1996-08/14020.html

"Understanding and Translating 'Today' in Luke 23.43," by J. Hong, published in "The Bible Translator," Vol. 46, 1995, pp. 408-417. can be found at
http://www.ubs-translations.org/tbt/1995/04/TBT199504.html?num=408&x=-365&y=-78&num1=

The thief on the cross, the comma & Christ
If the comma is placed after the word today, it shows Jesus being emphatic on that day of his crucifixion, saying, today when I am dying on the cross with no apparent hope, I am promising that you will be with me in paradise eventually. However, if the comma is inserted before the word today, Jesus would then be promising that the thief would be with Him that very day in paradise; thus making Jesus a liar and also contradicting John 20:17.
https://www.bibleinfo.com/en/questions/thief-on-cross

As Dr. E.W. Bullinger explains in The Companion Bible: “None of our modern marks of punctuation are found [in Bible texts] until the ninth century . . . The punctuation of all modern editions of the Greek text, and of all versions made from it, rests entirely on human authority, and has no weight whatever in determining or even influencing the interpretation of a single passage” (1990, Appendix 94, p. 136, emphasis in original).
https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-tools/bible-questions-and-answers/i-am-not-clear-about-luke-23-43-where-jesus-told-one

In Hebrew, the word “today,” or “this day” was also used for emphasis, and it is used that way many times in the Old Testament. “I call heaven and earth to witness against you today,...” (Deut. 4:26); “know therefore today,...” (Deut. 4:39); “And these words, which I command thee this day,...” (Deut. 6:6). “I testify against you this day, that you shall perish” (Deut. 8:19). A use that is very similar to Luke 23:43 is Deuteronomy 30:18, “I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish.” There is very little difference between, “I say to you today” (Luke 23:43) and “I declare to you today” (Deut. 30:18). Deuteronomy 9:1 says, “Hear O Israel today you are going to cross over this Jordan (P. Craigie; The New International Commentary on the Old Testament, without punctuation). It is vital that we understand that Israel did not cross Jordan “that day,” and in fact did not do so for another couple months. So “today” did not mean that very day, but was used for emphasis. Bullinger, Companion Bible, notes the punctuation of Deuteronomy 9:1 should be: “Hear O Israel today, you are...,” which is very similar to Luke 23:43. Other uses, just in Deuteronomy, that include the word “today” more for emphasis than for time, include Deut 4:40; 5:1; 7:11; 8:1, 11, 19; 9:1, 3; 10:13; 11:2, 8, 13, 26, 27, 28, 32; 13:18; 15:5, 15; 19:9; 26:3, 16, 17, 18; 27:1, 4, 10; 28:1, 13, 14, 15; 30:2, 8, 11, 15, 16, 18, 19; 32:46.
Joshua 23:14 is another verse that uses “today” for emphasis, not time. As it is punctuated in the NASB, it reads, “Now behold, today I am going the way of all the earth.” But Joshua did not die that day, which we can see by just reading the last two chapters of the Book of Joshua. Thus Joshua 23:14, Luke 23:43 and other verses we have seen should have the comma put after the word “today,” not before it.
https://www.revisedenglishversion.com/Luke/23/43

The Misplaced Comma at Luke 23:43
https://newworldtranslation.blogspot.com/2018/06/the-misplaced-comma-at-luke-2343.html

More on the New World Translation and Luke 23:43
https://newworldtranslation.blogspot.com/2018/01/more-on-new-world-translation-and-luke.html

Prof. Carl W. Conrad, Department of Classics/Washington University, wrote upon where he thought it best in a translation of Luke 23:43 to place the comma, that is, with "truly I tell you today,...." rather than with "....,today you will be with me in paradise." This was a change in his previous viewpoint following a number of other contributors on the bgreek list.
http://onlytruegod.org/defense/luke23.43.htm

 We see The Emphasized Bible by Joseph B. Rotherham also punctuating this Scripture to produce the meaning found in the NWT:
"Verily I say unto thee this day: With me shalt thou be in Paradise."
And the footnote for Luke 23:43 in Lamsa's translation admits:
"Ancient texts were not punctuated. The comma could come before or after today."
The Concordant Literal New Testament renders it: "43 And Jesus said to him, 'Verily, to you am I saying today, with Me shall you be in paradise.'"
2001 Translation – An American English Bible: 43 And [Jesus] replied, `I tell you this today; you will be with me in Paradise.'
https://defendingjehovahswitnesses.blogspot.com/2011/08/luke-2343-punctuation-and-new-world.html

Also, the following verses contain SHMERON at the conclusion of a clause or
sentence in Luke. Therefore, I find it reasonable to conclude that considering
"dubious" and not so dubious theological contextual indicators would be required
to help us with this one.
NIV Luke 5:26 Everyone was amazed and gave praise to God. They were filled with
awe and said, "We have seen remarkable things today."
NIV Luke 12:28 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here
today, and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, how much more will he clothe you, O
you of little faith!
NIV Luke 13:32 He replied, "Go tell that fox,'I will drive out demons and heal
people today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will reach my goal.'
NIV Luke 13:33 In any case, I must keep going today and tomorrow and the next
day-- for surely no prophet can die outside Jerusalem!
NIV Luke 19:5 When Jesus reached the spot, he looked up and said to him,
"Zacchaeus, come down immediately. I must stay at your house today."
NIV Luke 22:34 Jesus answered, "I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows
today, you will deny three times that you know me."
NIV Luke 22:61 The Lord turned and looked straight at Peter. Then Peter
remembered the word the Lord had spoken to him: "Before the rooster crows today,
you will disown me three times."
https://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/test-archives/html4/1996-07/14016.html

5 comments:

  1. Ah, the Jehovah's Witnesses are soooo disingenuous. Some of them will fight tooth and nail to defend their heretical doctrine and worthless translation that was specifically designed to protect their false doctrine. The comma belongs before today in Luke 23:43, and that is all there is to it:

    https://rationalchristiandiscernment.blogspot.com/2019/05/should-translators-place-comma-before.html

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. This is not an argument. It's just a hissy fit designed to look like a comment.

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    2. You are simply another Jehovah's Witness using sophistry trying to justify your abuse of Scripture. Funny how for almost 2000 years the comma was where is today; so were most ante-nicene fathers and scholars ignorant? I just got the typical respond from someone of your ilk. Jehovah's Witnesses behave rudely when you make them think.

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    3. Insulting me, repeatedly, is still not an argument. However, I'd be interested to see your quotes with the ante-nicene fathers and the comma at Luke 23:43, and let's see if you can respond without these childish ad hominem attacks.

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    4. Jesse, it would indeed be very enlightening to have the quotes from the anti-nicene fathers and scholars.

      Delete