From an old website: In light of what is taught about the Holy Spirit, and comparing it to what is taught about Satan, would someone please "logically" answer the following questions:
(1) How does being called a manslayer (in a spiritual sense) make Satan a "person," but being a lifegiver (in the same spiritual sense) makes the Spirit "an active force"? (2 Cor.3:7 )
Reply: It is interesting that the author uses 2 Cor 3:7 to try an make his point, since this scripture mentions neither Satan or the holy spirit. It (and the surrounding context) does say something quite interesting though: "But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?" NKJV
Did you notice how the "ministry of the Spirit" is viewed in the same vein as the impersonal "ministry of death." The "ministry of death" is the law of Moses, and the "ministry of the Spirit" is "Paul descriptive term for the New Covenant." MacArthur Study Bible/NKJV
Further Questions:(2) How does being a liar (in a spiritual sense) make Satan a "person, "but being the "spirit of truth" (in the same spiritual sense) makes the Spirit "an active force"? (John 14:17; 15:26; 16:3)
(3) How is it that when Satan "leads" (1 Chr. 21:1) it makes him a "person," but when the Holy Spirit "leads" he is just an "active force"?
(4) How is it that when Satan speaks it makes him a "person," (Job 1:9) but when the Spirit speaks it still makes him "an active force"? (Matt.10:20; 1 Tim.4:1;)
(5) Why is it that personal pronouns are ascribed to Satan because he is a "person," yet personal pronouns are used of the Spirit and you can still call him an "an active force"?
Reply: Well, what then, do the words SATAN and SPIRIT mean?
"<1,,4567,satanas>
a Greek form derived from the Aramaic (Heb., Satan), "an adversary," is used (a) of an angel of Jehovah in Num. 22:22 (the first occurrence of the Word in the OT); (b) of men, e.g., 1 Sam. 29:4; Ps. 38:20; 71:13; four in Ps. 109; (c) of "Satan," the Devil, some seventeen or eighteen times in the OT; in Zech. 3:1, where the name receives its interpretation, "to be (his) adversary," RV (see marg.; AV, "to resist him").
In the NT the word is always used of "Satan," the adversary (a) of God and Christ, e.g., Matt. 4:10; 12:26; Mark 1:13; 3:23,26; 4:15; Luke 4:8 (in some mss.); 11:18; 22:3; John 13:27; (b) of His people, e.g., Luke 22:31; Acts 5:3; Rom. 16:20; 1 Cor. 5:5; 7:5; 2 Cor. 2:11; 11:14; 12:7; 1 Thess. 2:18; 1 Tim. 1:20; 5:15; Rev. 2:9,13 (twice),24; 3:9; (c) of mankind, Luke 13:16; Acts 26:18; 2 Thess. 2:9; Rev. 12:9; 20:7. His doom, sealed at the Cross is foretold in its stages in Luke 10:18; Rev. 20:2,10. Believers are assured of victory over him, Rom. 16:20.
The appellation was given by the Lord to Peter, as a "Satan-like" man, on the occasion when he endeavored to dissuade Him from death, Matt. 16:23; Mark 8:33.
"Satan" is not simply the personification of evil influences in the heart, for he tempted Christ, in whose heart no evil thought could ever have arisen (John 14:30, 2 Cor. 5:21; Heb. 4:15); moreover his personality is asserted in both the OT and the NT, and especially in the latter, whereas if the OT language was intended to be figurative, the NT would have made this evident. See DEVIL.
Spirit: "<1,,4151,pneuma>
primarily denotes "the wind" (akin to pneo, "to breathe, blow"); also "breath;" then, especially "the spirit," which, like the wind, is invisible, immaterial and powerful. The NT uses of the word may be analyzed approximately as follows:
"(a) the wind, John 3:8 (where marg. is, perhaps, to be preferred); Heb. 1:7; cp. Amos 4:13, Sept.; (b) the breath, 2 Thess. 2:8; Rev. 11:11; 13:15; cp. Job 12:10, Sept.; " Vine's Expository Dictionary
Vine’s does believe in the third person of the Trinity (as the 7th definition of RUAH), but notice that even he is forced to give impersonality as the PRIMARY definition of SPIRIT. (see footnote below)
“In the OT, Heb. Ruah means first of all wind and breath, but also the human spirit in the sense of life force and even personal energy.” Eerdman’s Dictionary of the Bible (see also Brown Driver Brigg’s Lexicon)
What do others say?
"Spirit is the principle of life and vital activity. The spirit is the breath of life (Gn 6:17; 7:15, 22; BS 38:23; WS 15:11, 16; 16:14). The breath is the breath of God, the wind, communicated to man by divine inspiration....The spirit of Yahweh or the spirit of God (Elohim) is a **force** that has unique effects upon man...and the spirit of Yahweh is a **force** which operates the works of Yahweh the savior and the judge. The spirit of Yahweh is often the **force** which inspires prophecy (Nm 11:17 ff; 24:2; 2 S 23:2; 1 Ch 12:18; Is 61:1; Mi 3:8; Ezk 2:2; 3:12, 14, 24; 8:3; 11:1, 5, 24; 37:1; 43:5; Ne 9:30; Zc 7:12). The prophet is a man of the spirit (Ho 9:7)." Dictionary of the Bible by John L. McKenzie, S.J.
To sum up, lexically, the spirit is an impersonal force (like wind or breath) while Satan is always used to denote a person. These very important points will help us to understand the rest.
It should be added, that in the Bible, even eagles speak (Rev 8:13).
Further Question:(6) Can the Holy Spirit be Grieved? (Eph. 4:30) Is this not a attribute of personality?
Reply: Do not the "stones cry out" (Luke 19:40)? Do not the "wages cry out" (James 5:4 Revised English Bible)? Is this not a attribute of personality?
Further Question:(7) Can the Holy Spirit "teach?" (John 14:26) Is this not an attribute of personality?
Reply: Even your "right hand" teaches in the Bible (Ps 45:4). Is this not an attribute of personality?
Further Question:(8) Can the Holy Spirit "see"
Reply: In the Bible, even the blind can see with "eyes of your understanding" by means of " the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him." Eph 1:17, 18
As we can see, the Bible employs terms that are descriptive, and often personifies the impersonal.
Sheol/Hell has a mouth and can swallow people (Numbers 16:30), it has ropes (2 Samuel 22:6), and it has soul (Isaiah 5:14).
"Sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire" (Gen 4:7 KJV). Here SIN is given desire, it lies and it is referred to as "HIS."
Blood cries out (Gen 4:10).
Names can rot (Pr 10:7)
Desire gives birth (Jas 1:15)
"Hell is naked" (Job 26:6 KJV)
Mountains give birth (Is 55:12)
A man of wisdom will see God's name (Mic 6:9)
God's name is near (Ps 75:1)
The apostle Paul personalized sin and death and also undeserved kindness as "kings." (Ro 5:14, 17, 21; 6:12) He writes of sin as "receiving an inducement," 'working out covetousness,' 'seducing,' and 'killing.' (Ro 7:8-11)
Further Questions: Please explain where I went wrong when using the same"logic" in the following!
I could say that Satan is not a person because In Acts 5:3 he "fills" people.
Reply: Does Satan indeed fill people in this scripture? No, it says that he fills your heart. What does that mean? Take note of how the following versions translate this passage:
“Why do you let Satan take control of you and make you lie” TEV
“Why was it that Satan put into your heart to lie” Lattimore
“How is it that Satan exercised control over your heart” Wuest
“Why has Satan taken such possession of your heart” AT
“How did Satan get you to lie” Message
“Why has Satan filled your heart to lie….ftn, Ananias and Sapphira were satanically inspired in contrast to Barnabas Spirit-filled gesture.” NKJV MacArthur Study Bible
(Notice here that filling is akin to inspiration).
One unique aspect of spirit is that it can be "poured out." (see Prov 1:23; Is 29:10; 32:15; 44:3; Ez 39:29; Joel 2:28, 29; Zech 12:10; Acts 2:17, 18, 33; 10:45)
Show me where Satan can do the same thing?
Further Question: I could say that Jehovah is also not a person because in Eph. 3:19 he is spoken of as "filling" people.
Reply: Remember, only the spirit is spoken of as being "poured out." So what does Ephesians 3:19 mean? "You will be filled with the fullness of life and power that comes from God." New Living Translation
Further Question: I could say that because Jesus is not a person because in Romans 6:3 people can be "baptized" into him!
Reply: What does "baptized" into him" mean? "This does not refer to water baptism. Paul is actually using the word "baptized" in a metaphorical sense, as we might in saying someone was immersed in his work, or underwent baptism of fire when when experiencing some trouble." NKJV MacArthur Study Bible.
A look at the surrounding context will clear this up.
Other Bibles say "initiated into Christ Jesus" Unvarnished NT
"we were baptized to become one with Christ" New Living Translation
Further Question: I could say that Jehovah is not a person because in (Luke 4:18; Acts 10:38; and Heb. 1:9 people can be "anointed" with him!
Reply: But is that what it really says?
Luke 4:18, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, Because he anointed me to preach good tidings to the poor." In this scripture we are not anointed with Jehovah, but with his spirit.
Acts 10:38, "how God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power" Again, there is nothing about being anointed with the person of Jehovah, but again, with his spirit.
Hebrews 1:9, "Therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee With the oil of gladness above thy fellows" In this scripture we are not anointed with the person of Jehovah, but with figurative oil. This scripture runs parallel to Isaiah 61:3 where people are called "trees of righteousness."
So, there is nothing in the above mentioned scriptures that says we are anointed with the person of Jehovah. Remember, it is his spirit that is poured out.
Further Questions: You would also have us believe that just because the Spirit "Spoke" does not "prove" that he was a Person because when he "spoke" it was through humans or angels. Does this in some way prove that the Spirit is not a real person? If so, did you know that the same thing could be said of Satan? Do you know that the Devil spoke through Serpents? (Gen. 3:1)and thru through man? (1 Sam. 28:2-20) Do you believe that it would be blasphemy to say that Jehovah is not God?
Reply: As we have seen above, the spirit is breath. In the Bible it is associated with "breath" and even "nostrils." (Gen 7:22; Job 27:3; 32:8; 33:4; 34:14; Is 42:5; Jn 20:22) When I speak, breath comes out of my mouth. This is my spirit, not a separate personage.
That is why in the Bible the holy spirit is often associated with non-persons (see 1Jn 5:8; 2Cor 6:6; 1 Thess 1:5; Mt 3:11; Acts 11:24; 13:52).
Further Questions: Would it be blasphemy to say that Jehovah is not a real person? Would it be blasphemy to say that Jesus was not a real person? I assume that your answers would be yes. Now, consider this: Would Satan do all in his power to cause you to lose your eternal life. And the Bible tells us that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven. (Matt. 12:31-33)
Reply: Well, since God's spirit is his breath, and the Bible is God-breathed (theopneustos, 2315...you will notice that this word comes from the word SPIRIT/PNUEMA) at 2Tim 3:16, then sinning against holy spirit implies something else than sinning against 1/3 of God.
Since spirit is neuter, even the King James Bible calls the spirit an "it" (see Rom 8:16, 26). Spirit can even be portioned out (see 2Kings 2:9).
Now I will indeed admit that there can be more to the word spirit. Spirit can be a temperament or a disposition. That is why the Bible can speak of "the spirit of Cyrus" (2 Chron 36:22; Ezra 1:1), and "the spirit of Tilgath-pilneser king of Assyria" (1Chron 5:26), "the spirit of Jacob" (Gen 45:27), of David (1Sam 30:12), and the "spirit of Zerubbabel" (Hag 1:14).
There are of course spirit persons, like God (John 4:24) and angels, but as we can see, the same meaning is used, "Who maketh his angels winds" Heb 1:7. That God is spirit stands as the antithesis of flesh (cf. Heb. 11:27, 1Cor 15:50). To worship God means to worship in "spirit and truth." Again, see that "spirit" is compared to something impersonal as "truth."
It is by examining the entire Bible that we do discern between "spirit of truth and the spirit of error." 1John 4:6 RSV
Many point out that by applying words and titles equally to Jehovah and Jesus makes them the same person, and then a Trinity, then why....:
Why is the holy spirit never worshipped?
In the introduction of their letters to the churches, none of the New Testament writers identifies himself with the holy spirit as he does with God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Why is this if they are part of the same being?
Why does Paul never send greetings from the holy spirit, only God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ?
Why do visions of heaven NOT include the person of the holy spirit?
Why is the holy spirit never called the First and the Last?
Why doesn't the holy spirit have a name?
Why isn't the holy spirit a king?
Why is theos/elohim never applied to the holy spirit?
Why is the holy spirit never called a saviour?
Why is the holy spirit given liquidity?
"Many words associated with God's spirit give it the attributes of a liquid, which by definition cannot refer to a person. This liquid language is consistent with the spirit being His presence and power. We are baptized (literally 'dipped') with and in it like water (Matt. 3:11; Acts 1:5). We are all made to 'drink' from the same spirit, as from a well or a fountain (1Cor. 12:13). It is written in our hearts like ink (2 Cor 3:3). We are 'anointed' with it, like oil (Acts 10:38; 2 Cor 1:30; 1 John 2:27). We are 'sealed' with it as with melted wax (Eph. 1:14). It is 'poured out' on us (Acts 10:45; Rom. 5:5). It is 'measured' as if it had volume (2 Kings 2:9; John 3:34-KJV). We are to be filled with it (Acts 2:4; Eph. 5:18). This 'filling' is to capacity at the new birth and to overflowing as we act according to its influence." One God & One Lord by Graeser/Lynn/ Schoenheit, p.598
Fortman says, "The Jews never regarded the spirit as a person; nor is there any solid evidence that any Old Testament writer held this view....The Holy Spirit is usually presented in the Synoptics and in Acts as a divine force or power." The Triune God, pp. 6, 15
"Another text has God's 'Spirit' as His agent in creation. Because they may have been considered substitute phrases for God Himself, Judaism never made them separate 'Persons' as Christianity did. However, it is virtually certain that this late Judaistic tendency to hypostasize [i.e. to symbolize a concept in a concrete form] had a great influence on the development of the Christian teaching of the three 'Persons' of God."
p. 38, The Christian Conspiracy, by Dr Moore
I suspect that the writer of the above linked site did not get a response due to the *spirit* in which his letter was written, I realize that "God gave them a *spirit of stupor*, eyes that they should not see." Romans 11:8 ASV
So is it blasphemy to say that the holy spirit is not a person, one third of a Triune deity (when this is not borne out in the Scriptures)...or is it blasphemous to compare the spirit, breath and inspiration of God to Satan the Devil to buttress your point?
**Vine’s (p. 241) uses scriptures like Genesis 1:2 to prove that the Spirit is the 3rd person of the Trinity. But does it really? Take note of how other Trinitarians have rendered this scripture:
"a mighty wind swept over the waters." New American Bible
"a divine wind sweeping over the waters." New Jerusalem Bible
"and the power of God was moving over the water." Good News Bible-TEV
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Question:
"he uses "spirit" as defining wind etc when speaking of the spirit YET he will not admit that JEHOVAH is only some wind will he???? remember its the same exact word being used when the bible says GOD IS SPIRIT. so your logic again is a flaw.
Reply: There is no flaw here at all, and you missed the whole point of your missed point. The word SATAN deals primarily and only with person(s). The word Spirit/RUAH/PNEUMA does not primarily deal with any kind of person.
God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth. Jn 4:24
You said I could not say that God is a wind. But there are similarities that you are missing. Like wind, God is invisible (Col 1:15; 1Tim 1:17; Heb. 11:27), as opposed to the physical or material nature of man(John 1:18; 3:6).
When God says he is Spirit (or "a Spirit" KJV, Beck, NWT), he is speaking of his nature (1Cor 15:44). That is why Williams NT has "God is a spiritual being."
[Another way to harmonize this is by comparing John 4:24 PNEUMA O QEOS with O QEOS AGAPH at 1 John 4:8, 16. "God is spirit" and "God is Love" are similar in that O QEOS ( the God) is the subject, since it is articular (it has the article "the") and PNEUMA and AGAPH are not. In each case the predicate nominative, "spirit" or "love" is what some call "qualitative," in the above cases expressing nature (like "John is a pussycat" or "Bill is divine"). It describes a quality of hO QEOS (c.f. 1John 1:5). In this sense PNEUMA functions similar to an adjective. These types of constructions in John have bearing on how we interpret Jn 1.1]
Let me explain the impersonality of holy spirit another way. 2Peter 1:21 states: "For not by the will of man was prophecy carried on at any time, but, being carried on by holy spirit, holy men of God speak." Concordant Literal NT
Now read 2Tim 3:16 as a parallel: "Every scripture is God-breathed." Literal English Translation by Alfred Marshall
So we can see that the activity of the holy spirit is equivalent to the activity of God's breath or power, hence a force.
That is why the Unvarnished NT can say, "And suddenly down from the sky came the rush of a driving wind of violent force and filled the whole house...and they were all filled with holy breath." Acts 2
"HOLY SPIRIT, the mysterious power or presence of God in nature or with individuals and communities, inspiring them or empowering them with qualities they would not otherwise possess. The term spirit...denotes "wind", "breath", and by extension the life-giving element." Harper Collins Dictionary of the Bible, p. 432
Remember, a person, whether it be an angel, Satan, or Jehovah cannot be poured out. They are not given the liquidity of the holy spirit.
However, Jesus can breathe on someone, and they can receive holy spirit, "And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Spirit." Jn 20:22 ASV
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Question:
I enjoyed your reply to the web critic on the question of the personality of the Holy Spirit-provides great answers. Regarding the pouring out of the holy spirit as evidence of its non-personality, this critic might refer to phillipians 2:17 and 2 tim 4:6 where paul uses similar language. I know this is different-obvious metaphor,but how would you answer this attempt to compare these references?
Reply: In Tim and Phil the word used for POUR is Strong's Ref. # 4689 spendo which means "to pour out as a libation, i.e. (figuratively) to devote (one's life or blood, as a sacrifice) ('spend')"
This is why the American Standard Version has:
2Tim 4:6 For I am already being offered, and the time of my departure is come.
Phil 2:17 Yea, and if I am offered upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I joy, and rejoice with you all
It is also used in Mark 4:31.
In Acts, a different word is used for POUR as with the holy spirit is Strong's Ref. # 1632 ekcheo which means " to pour forth; figuratively, to bestow: KJV--gush (pour) out, run greedily (out), shed (abroad, forth), spill."
It is also used at Matt 9:17 (wine), Matt 23:35 (blood),
So we see, that it is the spirit again that is given true liquidity.
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Someone did bring something interesting to my attention that Vine's uses to promote the personality of the holy spirit. "The full title with the article before both pneuma and hagios..."the Spirit the Holy," stresses the character of the Person, e.g., Matt. 12:32; Mark 3:29..."
But is this really so? I collected these examples from the LXX and the Greek NT:
Dan 9:20 TOU OROUS TOU AGIOU The holy the mountain
Ex 26:33 ANA MESON TOU AGIOU KAI ANA MESON TOU AGIOU The holy place and the holy place
Is 63:15 TOU OIKOU TOU AGIOU The holy the house
Ps 104:42 TOU LOGOU TOU AGIOU The holy the word
Acts 4:30 TOU ONOMATOS TOU AGIOU The holy the name
Acts 6:13 TOU TOPOU TOU AGIOU The holy the place
Rev 21:2 THN POLIN THN AGIAN The holy the city
Rev 21:10 THN POLIN THN AGIAN The holy the city
Rev 22:19 THS POLEWS THS AGIAS The holy the city
As we see, this is quite a stretch, for no one would really consider the above instances examples of something stressing the character of the Person.
From an email: Oh come on, how can a force be grieved? It has to be a person.
Reply: According to Scripture an inanimate force can be grieved.
2Ki. 13:21: "but he did not grieve (ELUPHSE) the spirit of his son Ammon." LXX Did Ammon have another part of his essence/substance that was grieved?
Job 31:39: "If too I grieved (ELUPHSA) the heart of the owner of the soil." And, Lam.1:22: "My heart is grieved (LUPEITAI)." LXX
Esau's pagan wives were "a bitterness of spirit" to Isaac and Rebekah.(Gen. 26:35) Young, Rotherham, KJV mg.
Additionally, other *things* are said to have *emotions*: "hearts" (Job 31:39, Lam.1:22), "God's name" (Lev. 24:11), "nations" (Isa. 23:12, LXX), "Armies" (1Ki. 17:10 Al.).
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From an email:
2 Cor 13:14, "May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all."
Are you upset because this verse wasn't included in the beginning of the lettter, but rather the end?
How does you read this verse and have fellowship with an "active force"?
Reply: "Shall the throne of iniquity have fellowship with thee?" Ps 94:20
"what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?" 2 Cor 6:14
"have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them." Eph 5:11
Obviously, it is Biblically possible to have FELLOWSHIP with impersonal things.
(1) How does being called a manslayer (in a spiritual sense) make Satan a "person," but being a lifegiver (in the same spiritual sense) makes the Spirit "an active force"? (2 Cor.3:7 )
Reply: It is interesting that the author uses 2 Cor 3:7 to try an make his point, since this scripture mentions neither Satan or the holy spirit. It (and the surrounding context) does say something quite interesting though: "But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?" NKJV
Did you notice how the "ministry of the Spirit" is viewed in the same vein as the impersonal "ministry of death." The "ministry of death" is the law of Moses, and the "ministry of the Spirit" is "Paul descriptive term for the New Covenant." MacArthur Study Bible/NKJV
Further Questions:(2) How does being a liar (in a spiritual sense) make Satan a "person, "but being the "spirit of truth" (in the same spiritual sense) makes the Spirit "an active force"? (John 14:17; 15:26; 16:3)
(3) How is it that when Satan "leads" (1 Chr. 21:1) it makes him a "person," but when the Holy Spirit "leads" he is just an "active force"?
(4) How is it that when Satan speaks it makes him a "person," (Job 1:9) but when the Spirit speaks it still makes him "an active force"? (Matt.10:20; 1 Tim.4:1;)
(5) Why is it that personal pronouns are ascribed to Satan because he is a "person," yet personal pronouns are used of the Spirit and you can still call him an "an active force"?
Reply: Well, what then, do the words SATAN and SPIRIT mean?
"<1,,4567,satanas>
a Greek form derived from the Aramaic (Heb., Satan), "an adversary," is used (a) of an angel of Jehovah in Num. 22:22 (the first occurrence of the Word in the OT); (b) of men, e.g., 1 Sam. 29:4; Ps. 38:20; 71:13; four in Ps. 109; (c) of "Satan," the Devil, some seventeen or eighteen times in the OT; in Zech. 3:1, where the name receives its interpretation, "to be (his) adversary," RV (see marg.; AV, "to resist him").
In the NT the word is always used of "Satan," the adversary (a) of God and Christ, e.g., Matt. 4:10; 12:26; Mark 1:13; 3:23,26; 4:15; Luke 4:8 (in some mss.); 11:18; 22:3; John 13:27; (b) of His people, e.g., Luke 22:31; Acts 5:3; Rom. 16:20; 1 Cor. 5:5; 7:5; 2 Cor. 2:11; 11:14; 12:7; 1 Thess. 2:18; 1 Tim. 1:20; 5:15; Rev. 2:9,13 (twice),24; 3:9; (c) of mankind, Luke 13:16; Acts 26:18; 2 Thess. 2:9; Rev. 12:9; 20:7. His doom, sealed at the Cross is foretold in its stages in Luke 10:18; Rev. 20:2,10. Believers are assured of victory over him, Rom. 16:20.
The appellation was given by the Lord to Peter, as a "Satan-like" man, on the occasion when he endeavored to dissuade Him from death, Matt. 16:23; Mark 8:33.
"Satan" is not simply the personification of evil influences in the heart, for he tempted Christ, in whose heart no evil thought could ever have arisen (John 14:30, 2 Cor. 5:21; Heb. 4:15); moreover his personality is asserted in both the OT and the NT, and especially in the latter, whereas if the OT language was intended to be figurative, the NT would have made this evident. See DEVIL.
Spirit: "<1,,4151,pneuma>
primarily denotes "the wind" (akin to pneo, "to breathe, blow"); also "breath;" then, especially "the spirit," which, like the wind, is invisible, immaterial and powerful. The NT uses of the word may be analyzed approximately as follows:
"(a) the wind, John 3:8 (where marg. is, perhaps, to be preferred); Heb. 1:7; cp. Amos 4:13, Sept.; (b) the breath, 2 Thess. 2:8; Rev. 11:11; 13:15; cp. Job 12:10, Sept.; " Vine's Expository Dictionary
Vine’s does believe in the third person of the Trinity (as the 7th definition of RUAH), but notice that even he is forced to give impersonality as the PRIMARY definition of SPIRIT. (see footnote below)
“In the OT, Heb. Ruah means first of all wind and breath, but also the human spirit in the sense of life force and even personal energy.” Eerdman’s Dictionary of the Bible (see also Brown Driver Brigg’s Lexicon)
What do others say?
"Spirit is the principle of life and vital activity. The spirit is the breath of life (Gn 6:17; 7:15, 22; BS 38:23; WS 15:11, 16; 16:14). The breath is the breath of God, the wind, communicated to man by divine inspiration....The spirit of Yahweh or the spirit of God (Elohim) is a **force** that has unique effects upon man...and the spirit of Yahweh is a **force** which operates the works of Yahweh the savior and the judge. The spirit of Yahweh is often the **force** which inspires prophecy (Nm 11:17 ff; 24:2; 2 S 23:2; 1 Ch 12:18; Is 61:1; Mi 3:8; Ezk 2:2; 3:12, 14, 24; 8:3; 11:1, 5, 24; 37:1; 43:5; Ne 9:30; Zc 7:12). The prophet is a man of the spirit (Ho 9:7)." Dictionary of the Bible by John L. McKenzie, S.J.
To sum up, lexically, the spirit is an impersonal force (like wind or breath) while Satan is always used to denote a person. These very important points will help us to understand the rest.
It should be added, that in the Bible, even eagles speak (Rev 8:13).
Further Question:(6) Can the Holy Spirit be Grieved? (Eph. 4:30) Is this not a attribute of personality?
Reply: Do not the "stones cry out" (Luke 19:40)? Do not the "wages cry out" (James 5:4 Revised English Bible)? Is this not a attribute of personality?
Further Question:(7) Can the Holy Spirit "teach?" (John 14:26) Is this not an attribute of personality?
Reply: Even your "right hand" teaches in the Bible (Ps 45:4). Is this not an attribute of personality?
Further Question:(8) Can the Holy Spirit "see"
Reply: In the Bible, even the blind can see with "eyes of your understanding" by means of " the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him." Eph 1:17, 18
As we can see, the Bible employs terms that are descriptive, and often personifies the impersonal.
Sheol/Hell has a mouth and can swallow people (Numbers 16:30), it has ropes (2 Samuel 22:6), and it has soul (Isaiah 5:14).
"Sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire" (Gen 4:7 KJV). Here SIN is given desire, it lies and it is referred to as "HIS."
Blood cries out (Gen 4:10).
Names can rot (Pr 10:7)
Desire gives birth (Jas 1:15)
"Hell is naked" (Job 26:6 KJV)
Mountains give birth (Is 55:12)
A man of wisdom will see God's name (Mic 6:9)
God's name is near (Ps 75:1)
The apostle Paul personalized sin and death and also undeserved kindness as "kings." (Ro 5:14, 17, 21; 6:12) He writes of sin as "receiving an inducement," 'working out covetousness,' 'seducing,' and 'killing.' (Ro 7:8-11)
Further Questions: Please explain where I went wrong when using the same"logic" in the following!
I could say that Satan is not a person because In Acts 5:3 he "fills" people.
Reply: Does Satan indeed fill people in this scripture? No, it says that he fills your heart. What does that mean? Take note of how the following versions translate this passage:
“Why do you let Satan take control of you and make you lie” TEV
“Why was it that Satan put into your heart to lie” Lattimore
“How is it that Satan exercised control over your heart” Wuest
“Why has Satan taken such possession of your heart” AT
“How did Satan get you to lie” Message
“Why has Satan filled your heart to lie….ftn, Ananias and Sapphira were satanically inspired in contrast to Barnabas Spirit-filled gesture.” NKJV MacArthur Study Bible
(Notice here that filling is akin to inspiration).
One unique aspect of spirit is that it can be "poured out." (see Prov 1:23; Is 29:10; 32:15; 44:3; Ez 39:29; Joel 2:28, 29; Zech 12:10; Acts 2:17, 18, 33; 10:45)
Show me where Satan can do the same thing?
Further Question: I could say that Jehovah is also not a person because in Eph. 3:19 he is spoken of as "filling" people.
Reply: Remember, only the spirit is spoken of as being "poured out." So what does Ephesians 3:19 mean? "You will be filled with the fullness of life and power that comes from God." New Living Translation
Further Question: I could say that because Jesus is not a person because in Romans 6:3 people can be "baptized" into him!
Reply: What does "baptized" into him" mean? "This does not refer to water baptism. Paul is actually using the word "baptized" in a metaphorical sense, as we might in saying someone was immersed in his work, or underwent baptism of fire when when experiencing some trouble." NKJV MacArthur Study Bible.
A look at the surrounding context will clear this up.
Other Bibles say "initiated into Christ Jesus" Unvarnished NT
"we were baptized to become one with Christ" New Living Translation
Further Question: I could say that Jehovah is not a person because in (Luke 4:18; Acts 10:38; and Heb. 1:9 people can be "anointed" with him!
Reply: But is that what it really says?
Luke 4:18, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, Because he anointed me to preach good tidings to the poor." In this scripture we are not anointed with Jehovah, but with his spirit.
Acts 10:38, "how God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power" Again, there is nothing about being anointed with the person of Jehovah, but again, with his spirit.
Hebrews 1:9, "Therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee With the oil of gladness above thy fellows" In this scripture we are not anointed with the person of Jehovah, but with figurative oil. This scripture runs parallel to Isaiah 61:3 where people are called "trees of righteousness."
So, there is nothing in the above mentioned scriptures that says we are anointed with the person of Jehovah. Remember, it is his spirit that is poured out.
Further Questions: You would also have us believe that just because the Spirit "Spoke" does not "prove" that he was a Person because when he "spoke" it was through humans or angels. Does this in some way prove that the Spirit is not a real person? If so, did you know that the same thing could be said of Satan? Do you know that the Devil spoke through Serpents? (Gen. 3:1)and thru through man? (1 Sam. 28:2-20) Do you believe that it would be blasphemy to say that Jehovah is not God?
Reply: As we have seen above, the spirit is breath. In the Bible it is associated with "breath" and even "nostrils." (Gen 7:22; Job 27:3; 32:8; 33:4; 34:14; Is 42:5; Jn 20:22) When I speak, breath comes out of my mouth. This is my spirit, not a separate personage.
That is why in the Bible the holy spirit is often associated with non-persons (see 1Jn 5:8; 2Cor 6:6; 1 Thess 1:5; Mt 3:11; Acts 11:24; 13:52).
Further Questions: Would it be blasphemy to say that Jehovah is not a real person? Would it be blasphemy to say that Jesus was not a real person? I assume that your answers would be yes. Now, consider this: Would Satan do all in his power to cause you to lose your eternal life. And the Bible tells us that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven. (Matt. 12:31-33)
Reply: Well, since God's spirit is his breath, and the Bible is God-breathed (theopneustos, 2315...you will notice that this word comes from the word SPIRIT/PNUEMA) at 2Tim 3:16, then sinning against holy spirit implies something else than sinning against 1/3 of God.
Since spirit is neuter, even the King James Bible calls the spirit an "it" (see Rom 8:16, 26). Spirit can even be portioned out (see 2Kings 2:9).
Now I will indeed admit that there can be more to the word spirit. Spirit can be a temperament or a disposition. That is why the Bible can speak of "the spirit of Cyrus" (2 Chron 36:22; Ezra 1:1), and "the spirit of Tilgath-pilneser king of Assyria" (1Chron 5:26), "the spirit of Jacob" (Gen 45:27), of David (1Sam 30:12), and the "spirit of Zerubbabel" (Hag 1:14).
There are of course spirit persons, like God (John 4:24) and angels, but as we can see, the same meaning is used, "Who maketh his angels winds" Heb 1:7. That God is spirit stands as the antithesis of flesh (cf. Heb. 11:27, 1Cor 15:50). To worship God means to worship in "spirit and truth." Again, see that "spirit" is compared to something impersonal as "truth."
It is by examining the entire Bible that we do discern between "spirit of truth and the spirit of error." 1John 4:6 RSV
Many point out that by applying words and titles equally to Jehovah and Jesus makes them the same person, and then a Trinity, then why....:
Why is the holy spirit never worshipped?
In the introduction of their letters to the churches, none of the New Testament writers identifies himself with the holy spirit as he does with God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Why is this if they are part of the same being?
Why does Paul never send greetings from the holy spirit, only God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ?
Why do visions of heaven NOT include the person of the holy spirit?
Why is the holy spirit never called the First and the Last?
Why doesn't the holy spirit have a name?
Why isn't the holy spirit a king?
Why is theos/elohim never applied to the holy spirit?
Why is the holy spirit never called a saviour?
Why is the holy spirit given liquidity?
"Many words associated with God's spirit give it the attributes of a liquid, which by definition cannot refer to a person. This liquid language is consistent with the spirit being His presence and power. We are baptized (literally 'dipped') with and in it like water (Matt. 3:11; Acts 1:5). We are all made to 'drink' from the same spirit, as from a well or a fountain (1Cor. 12:13). It is written in our hearts like ink (2 Cor 3:3). We are 'anointed' with it, like oil (Acts 10:38; 2 Cor 1:30; 1 John 2:27). We are 'sealed' with it as with melted wax (Eph. 1:14). It is 'poured out' on us (Acts 10:45; Rom. 5:5). It is 'measured' as if it had volume (2 Kings 2:9; John 3:34-KJV). We are to be filled with it (Acts 2:4; Eph. 5:18). This 'filling' is to capacity at the new birth and to overflowing as we act according to its influence." One God & One Lord by Graeser/Lynn/ Schoenheit, p.598
Fortman says, "The Jews never regarded the spirit as a person; nor is there any solid evidence that any Old Testament writer held this view....The Holy Spirit is usually presented in the Synoptics and in Acts as a divine force or power." The Triune God, pp. 6, 15
"Another text has God's 'Spirit' as His agent in creation. Because they may have been considered substitute phrases for God Himself, Judaism never made them separate 'Persons' as Christianity did. However, it is virtually certain that this late Judaistic tendency to hypostasize [i.e. to symbolize a concept in a concrete form] had a great influence on the development of the Christian teaching of the three 'Persons' of God."
p. 38, The Christian Conspiracy, by Dr Moore
I suspect that the writer of the above linked site did not get a response due to the *spirit* in which his letter was written, I realize that "God gave them a *spirit of stupor*, eyes that they should not see." Romans 11:8 ASV
So is it blasphemy to say that the holy spirit is not a person, one third of a Triune deity (when this is not borne out in the Scriptures)...or is it blasphemous to compare the spirit, breath and inspiration of God to Satan the Devil to buttress your point?
**Vine’s (p. 241) uses scriptures like Genesis 1:2 to prove that the Spirit is the 3rd person of the Trinity. But does it really? Take note of how other Trinitarians have rendered this scripture:
"a mighty wind swept over the waters." New American Bible
"a divine wind sweeping over the waters." New Jerusalem Bible
"and the power of God was moving over the water." Good News Bible-TEV
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Question:
"he uses "spirit" as defining wind etc when speaking of the spirit YET he will not admit that JEHOVAH is only some wind will he???? remember its the same exact word being used when the bible says GOD IS SPIRIT. so your logic again is a flaw.
Reply: There is no flaw here at all, and you missed the whole point of your missed point. The word SATAN deals primarily and only with person(s). The word Spirit/RUAH/PNEUMA does not primarily deal with any kind of person.
God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth. Jn 4:24
You said I could not say that God is a wind. But there are similarities that you are missing. Like wind, God is invisible (Col 1:15; 1Tim 1:17; Heb. 11:27), as opposed to the physical or material nature of man(John 1:18; 3:6).
When God says he is Spirit (or "a Spirit" KJV, Beck, NWT), he is speaking of his nature (1Cor 15:44). That is why Williams NT has "God is a spiritual being."
[Another way to harmonize this is by comparing John 4:24 PNEUMA O QEOS with O QEOS AGAPH at 1 John 4:8, 16. "God is spirit" and "God is Love" are similar in that O QEOS ( the God) is the subject, since it is articular (it has the article "the") and PNEUMA and AGAPH are not. In each case the predicate nominative, "spirit" or "love" is what some call "qualitative," in the above cases expressing nature (like "John is a pussycat" or "Bill is divine"). It describes a quality of hO QEOS (c.f. 1John 1:5). In this sense PNEUMA functions similar to an adjective. These types of constructions in John have bearing on how we interpret Jn 1.1]
Let me explain the impersonality of holy spirit another way. 2Peter 1:21 states: "For not by the will of man was prophecy carried on at any time, but, being carried on by holy spirit, holy men of God speak." Concordant Literal NT
Now read 2Tim 3:16 as a parallel: "Every scripture is God-breathed." Literal English Translation by Alfred Marshall
So we can see that the activity of the holy spirit is equivalent to the activity of God's breath or power, hence a force.
That is why the Unvarnished NT can say, "And suddenly down from the sky came the rush of a driving wind of violent force and filled the whole house...and they were all filled with holy breath." Acts 2
"HOLY SPIRIT, the mysterious power or presence of God in nature or with individuals and communities, inspiring them or empowering them with qualities they would not otherwise possess. The term spirit...denotes "wind", "breath", and by extension the life-giving element." Harper Collins Dictionary of the Bible, p. 432
Remember, a person, whether it be an angel, Satan, or Jehovah cannot be poured out. They are not given the liquidity of the holy spirit.
However, Jesus can breathe on someone, and they can receive holy spirit, "And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Spirit." Jn 20:22 ASV
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Question:
I enjoyed your reply to the web critic on the question of the personality of the Holy Spirit-provides great answers. Regarding the pouring out of the holy spirit as evidence of its non-personality, this critic might refer to phillipians 2:17 and 2 tim 4:6 where paul uses similar language. I know this is different-obvious metaphor,but how would you answer this attempt to compare these references?
Reply: In Tim and Phil the word used for POUR is Strong's Ref. # 4689 spendo which means "to pour out as a libation, i.e. (figuratively) to devote (one's life or blood, as a sacrifice) ('spend')"
This is why the American Standard Version has:
2Tim 4:6 For I am already being offered, and the time of my departure is come.
Phil 2:17 Yea, and if I am offered upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I joy, and rejoice with you all
It is also used in Mark 4:31.
In Acts, a different word is used for POUR as with the holy spirit is Strong's Ref. # 1632 ekcheo which means " to pour forth; figuratively, to bestow: KJV--gush (pour) out, run greedily (out), shed (abroad, forth), spill."
It is also used at Matt 9:17 (wine), Matt 23:35 (blood),
So we see, that it is the spirit again that is given true liquidity.
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Someone did bring something interesting to my attention that Vine's uses to promote the personality of the holy spirit. "The full title with the article before both pneuma and hagios..."the Spirit the Holy," stresses the character of the Person, e.g., Matt. 12:32; Mark 3:29..."
But is this really so? I collected these examples from the LXX and the Greek NT:
Dan 9:20 TOU OROUS TOU AGIOU The holy the mountain
Ex 26:33 ANA MESON TOU AGIOU KAI ANA MESON TOU AGIOU The holy place and the holy place
Is 63:15 TOU OIKOU TOU AGIOU The holy the house
Ps 104:42 TOU LOGOU TOU AGIOU The holy the word
Acts 4:30 TOU ONOMATOS TOU AGIOU The holy the name
Acts 6:13 TOU TOPOU TOU AGIOU The holy the place
Rev 21:2 THN POLIN THN AGIAN The holy the city
Rev 21:10 THN POLIN THN AGIAN The holy the city
Rev 22:19 THS POLEWS THS AGIAS The holy the city
As we see, this is quite a stretch, for no one would really consider the above instances examples of something stressing the character of the Person.
From an email: Oh come on, how can a force be grieved? It has to be a person.
Reply: According to Scripture an inanimate force can be grieved.
2Ki. 13:21: "but he did not grieve (ELUPHSE) the spirit of his son Ammon." LXX Did Ammon have another part of his essence/substance that was grieved?
Job 31:39: "If too I grieved (ELUPHSA) the heart of the owner of the soil." And, Lam.1:22: "My heart is grieved (LUPEITAI)." LXX
Esau's pagan wives were "a bitterness of spirit" to Isaac and Rebekah.(Gen. 26:35) Young, Rotherham, KJV mg.
Additionally, other *things* are said to have *emotions*: "hearts" (Job 31:39, Lam.1:22), "God's name" (Lev. 24:11), "nations" (Isa. 23:12, LXX), "Armies" (1Ki. 17:10 Al.).
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From an email:
2 Cor 13:14, "May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all."
Are you upset because this verse wasn't included in the beginning of the lettter, but rather the end?
How does you read this verse and have fellowship with an "active force"?
Reply: "Shall the throne of iniquity have fellowship with thee?" Ps 94:20
"what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?" 2 Cor 6:14
"have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them." Eph 5:11
Obviously, it is Biblically possible to have FELLOWSHIP with impersonal things.
For much more information go to
The New World Translation Companion Disk
or The Trinity Doctrine & Christology - Over 320 Books on the on TWO DVDroms
The New World Translation Companion Disk
or The Trinity Doctrine & Christology - Over 320 Books on the on TWO DVDroms
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